Our Editor-in-Chief recently sat down with Leslie Thrope, Director of the Center for Public Service Law, to discuss the Public Interest Law Students Association’s upcoming Public Service Auction, the clerkship application season, post-graduate funding, and the state of Cardozo’s public interest program.

CJ: Why did you come to Cardozo?

LT: I had a very bad career services office at CUNY. I’d say it was virtually non-existent, so I didn’t really have a model for this job while I was practicing law and never saw anything like this as an opportunity that was available for me. I know CUNY has vastly improved since then, but at the time there was nothing.

Anyway, I practiced as a family court lawyer with a union for about nine years, representing their employees and dependents. When I left that job, I was looking at different options for myself and saw a posting on Idealist about this job and it seemed to incorporate all of my skills and interests.

I assumed I would be practicing again, and had actually received an offer from the city’s Legal Services Office. At that point, it became a no-brainer; I miss practicing and loved what I did in family court, but I really saw this as an opportunity that was much broader. I love working with students, and saw this as the chance to interact with them as well as my colleagues who are practicing attorneys. I always had a secret dream of teaching high school students, and law school students aren’t that much different.

CJ: They definitely have way better access to alcohol.

LT: That’s the difference. But the job really fulfilled in bringing in a group of people I’ve always wanted to work with in an environment where they’re making life long decisions. This is an opportunity to work with people who are still trying to figure out what they want to be when they grow up, with a focus on law and policy. The job has also incorporated my lifelong commitment to public service.

CJ: What have been your biggest contributions to the Center for Public Service Law?

LT: Well, a lot of that has been accomplished with the help of my colleagues in Career Services and the support staff, as well as faculty members and the Dean. I feel like the goals I had coming here have been nurtured and supported.

Public interest programming is a big one. When I came here in 2004, I had this grand goal of developing what has become Public Interest Advocacy Week, which we have done annually. It has been an incredible opportunity to bring in public interest practitioners, activists, and politicians who discuss relevant local and national issues.

Funding is something that we feel is important since it allows us to put students in these positions to get these experiences. And they are transformative experiences. Students in public interest organizations work with people, often helping them with a life-changing issue, and having the ability to know they’ve done that for somebody just transforms them. The numbers of students that enter public service is something I’m proud of, but regardless of where they end up they take it with them. I think it’s a win-win situation.

CJ: There’s been the perception that students enter the public sector when they can’t obtain employment in the private sector. Do you think that’s an accurate statement?

LT: I think it’s a false notion, but the idea that people enter the public sector as a fallback exists. I’ve had numerous conversations with 3Ls who were unsuccessful in their pursuit of a private sector associate position who come to me saying that they were interested in being prosecutors or civil rights lawyers, and are now looking to get those jobs. And the fact of the matter is that government and public interest jobs are just as competitive; they’re looking for dedicated and experienced people to do that work.

If a person knows they’re interested in public sector work, then my advice to them is to as much practical work as they can in those areas. We have great clinics here at Cardozo, a lot of public sector internship opportunities, and of course summer opportunities in public interest. That being said, there’s a caveat: my colleagues in the public sector and government know that there are students who obtain and choose to take summer associate positions for financial reasons to earn that $30,000. Of course, if those students get involved in public interest projects or community service, that summer associate position won’t hurt them.

CJ: In addition to being the Director of the Center for Public Service Law, you’re also the administrator of our clerkship program. Given the increased number of students applying, what are your expectations?

LT: A lot of students come in thinking that they will apply only to [judges] in the Southern and Eastern District of New York. This is the typical experience and the truth is it’s very unlikely that they’ll get placed. We do have students who did get clerkships in those areas, but most judges are hiring people with stellar credentials who have work experience.

If you come into the process saying you want to get that clerking experience, you should talk to faculty, do some research, and find out what it’s like. You should send some applications to those “dream judges,” but you should also consider trial courts in other places, like state courts in New Jersey. Students who send out applications before or during the summer of their second year generally have a lot of success, and later down the road there might be less options.

It’s hard because I don’t want to burst somebody’s bubble, but people have to look outside of New York and San Francisco. One should also be open to considering clerkships after some work experience. As Professor Reinert said during one of our informational sessions, if you’re a person who doesn’t like rejection, don’t apply for clerkships. He clerked for the United States Supreme Court, but when he was applying at the district court level, he sent out tons of applications and only received two interviews, and that’s the typical experience for many students.

CJ: My next question is about the Loan Assistance Repayment Program (LRAP).

LT: It’s now called the Laurie M. Tisch Loan Assistance Repayment Program. She was very generous.

CJ: Given the economic climate and the University’s recent financial problems, are there any concerns over the solvency of our post-graduate funding programs?

LT: If there are concerns, they haven’t come down to me, at least in regards to LRAP. Had we not received the generous gift, we might have been more concerned. Our LRAP program has been very strong and I’m lucky to administer a program that rewards graduates who are doing great work but not making much. I end up enjoying the administrative aspect because of the good work it supports.

Not only do we have the LRAP Program to help students in public interest, but the federal government has also taken huge steps to help students. Many lawyers who go into public interest generally have huge debt and go into jobs that pay a lot less. We have students who go to Massachusetts and do criminal defense for $35,000 a year, which is extraordinarily low for someone with over $100,000 in student loan debt.

But students do have more options now. President Bush signed into law the College Cost and Reduction Act for any person who comes out of school with federal debt and enters a low paying job. Even if they go into the private sector after graduation, they’re still covered. It goes into full effect in July 2009, so people graduating this year can go right into this program.

CJ: As for my last question, what do you think graduating students can do now to help Cardozo’s public interest program?

LT: I think the 3L class could help by coming back and sharing their experience regardless of whether they enter privat
e or public sector jobs. I like to know where people a

re, and I know it’s difficult to stay in touch once your career starts. I’m not expecting a phone call every day, but I think checking in would help. Getting involved and mentoring other students is the best gift.

If I had a message for a 2009 grad, it would be this: I hope law school was an incredible experience. When you go out there into the world, take Cardozo with you. Bring yourself back to us and help us connect students to what you’re doing.

I think that people believe they should leave here with a job, and that would be nice, but that’s not how things work in the public sector. Many public interest employers don’t hire until after the bar exam, so if you don’t have a job, take a deep breath, apply for the public sector fellowship program, and know that people do land on their feet in areas they are interested in. It takes some time, some creative energy, working with us, and networking; you just have to be patient.