Profiles in Black: History in the Making

Tiffany K. Ansley

Chantal N. Hamlin

Jason E. Starr

Contributors

Black Law Student Association members sat down with some of Cardozo’s black faculty and administrators to discuss challenges to minority enrollment in law school, civil rights in the age of Obama, and the legal profession generally.

div style=”text-align: left;”>Professor Michelle Adams

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What is the state of civil rights in light of the Obama presidency? How has this, if at all, changed the discussion?

“Well, it can’t hurt. I mean, it’s a great moment. We watched the inauguration here at the law school and it was a beautiful moment. But it’s not just his race, it’s him. It’s people being able to see the person past his race that I think is so important. People are attracted to Barack Obama not just because of his race or in spite of it; they are attracted to him as a person. They are attracted to his erudition, his brilliance, his themes. The reality of him governing of course will be different, but I do think that it’s a breakthrough moment not just because it’s the election of the first African-American, but because people are able to see the person. I think people are really seeing him as an individual and working on the process of separating the race from the person.

To me, to really move our country to the next level is to see people as individuals—to see their racial background as part of their background and a part of who they are, but to see individuals as disaggregated individuals as opposed to people as members of an undifferentiated group. And that for me is the best thing about this because it shows that were are beginning to be on that path. All the pent-up, historical segregation that still exists—those things are still there. But this is a wonderful moment for our country, there’s no two ways about it. It’s a wonderful moment for everyone in our country. Everybody took ownership of that moment and I am tremendously proud of the country.

When I started as a lawyer, if you had told me that we were going to have a Black president I would have said ‘You are crazy.’ He is very, very talented, but that doesn’t mean everything he does it right. That doesn’t meant everything he does I agree with, but he is an extremely talented person, and I think people were able to look at him and think, ‘This guy is just really, really talented.’ He’s just good, and I think that’s brought a lot of pride to people, but the reaction has also been just ‘yeah’—there are a lot of talented Black folk out there of which he is just one. He is a part of a long history of intellectualism and professionalism in the Black community—it’s not a secret.”

A recent study has shown that there are an increasing number of minorities taking the LSAT, but enrollment rates among students of color, especially Black students, are decreasing. What factors contribute to that reality, and what does that say about the legal profession?

“My guess is that it is financial. I mean, particularly in this environment now, you are asking someone to take on a tremendous amount of money in terms of loans. And even if they got a full ride, you’re still looking at three years of foregone salary. So there are still opportunity costs associated with it. So that’s my assumption.

I think it all goes back at the end of the day, as everything at the law school, to fundraising—dedicated fundraising. And it also is the general state of the economy. I have very large concerns about the state of the economy, of which we are a part.

I have to take a look at the numbers again in terms of Black matriculation rates at law schools—it’s certainly higher than it was when my dad was in law school, but that’s not enough. You’d like to see something approaching 10-12%, which would correlate with population, and I know we’re not there. My guess is probably something like 4-6% nationwide.”

As students, how can we contribute to that effort?

“Well, I have to tell you, I’m pretty old school about this. I think you’re number one job when you are in law school is to go to law school. What I mean by go to law school is that your number one job in law school is to do the work of a law student, which is to go to class and do as well as possible in class.

The reason for that is purely instrumental, which is to say the better you do in law school the more opportunities you are going to have employment-wise and that will either have an income generative effect or just sort of an overall opportunity effect and more choices.

My view about law school is like the 10,000 hour rule. The saying goes, ‘It takes 10,000 hours to get really, really good at something.’ I think law school is intellectually challenging, but I don’t think it’s impossible. It’s a matter of hours spent, and if those hours are allocated in different places then it’s harder to spend those hours doing other things, like studying. At a certain point, it’s just drudgery. Read the case, listen to the professor, go back and reread the case again. Then go to office hours. Then read Chemerinsky. Repeat. It’s not rocket science; it’s just a lot of hours.”

Sherry-Ann Smith, Assistant Director/Coordinator of Diversity Initiatives, Office of Career Services

If you had unlimited resources to create an ideal diversity career program, what would it look like?

“The ideal program at Cardozo would combine a number of factors: it would include working initially on the admissions end, going to high schools, going to colleges, letting students know what the value of going to law school is about, making sure that when students come in that they are actually prepared for law sc
hool. They thought that getting a B in law school is fine because getting a B in college was fine and then they r
ealize that it’s not.

Then once they are here, the career services aspect…[r]eally imparting the importance of networking from the beginning all the way through. [Also] making sure that once students graduate that there is support for them outside while they are working so that if they’re having a problem or concern…there is that support network that they can count on.

It is one thing for a student to come in and to graduate and go to a law firm or public sector employer, [or] corporation; it is another thing to make sure that diverse alum stay where they are. In the perfect world, that would be the perfect diversity program. Are there enough resources for that? That’s a whole other story.”

We know that minorities make up such a small percentage of the profession. What do you think that says about the legal profession in the past, the present, and going forward?

“I believe that there are a number of factors involved. Many times if you are the first in your family, you couldn’t afford to go to law school. When you started looking at how much it cost, if you didn’t know of all of the financial resources available, the cost is overwhelming.

Also from the employer side I think there was at one point a comfort level within certain legal employers where they went with what they knew. I think now you can’t really do that because everything has become so much more globalized, you have a client base that is more globalized…the perspectives of the people who are representing those corporations internally have changed. [I]t was incumbent upon legal employers to recognize that, and take measures to remedy that. It helps to know another perspective because it adds value to the type of advice that you would then be able to provide to your clients.”

Do you have any advice you would give a firm for bolstering diversity? What do you think they could do to do more? Do you think they are already doing enough?

“I think they need to do more than simply the diversity reception, or the diversity scholarship or the diversity fellowship. I think internally at the firms it has to start at the top, there must be a buy-in from the leadership levels, the partners…if there is no buy-in from the partners, very little is going to occur. You are just going to have a diversity fellowship or scholarship program and you may just have that one student or those two students come in, and that is just a number. That is not a change in philosophy at your firm or at your office. If they recognize that their client thinks [diversity is] important and the firm as a whole [thinks] that it is important, then maybe the culture of a lot of the private law firms may change.”

What do you think is the current state of civil rights now that President Obama has been elected? Arguably we have achieved the “Dream.” What do you think is next?

“In terms of civil rights, have we come far? Well, I would say we have, I mean, considering that in order for President Obama to have been elected in the first place it couldn’t have been all of the minority population. Certainly, there were people who believed and agreed with his philosophies and his policies in order for him to have gotten where he is.

Is there more work that needs to be done? I believe that there is much more work that should be done. I don’t think the work on civil rights has ended; in fact, I think it is still a work in progress. There is still some work to be done; his election is just one piece within the larger pie, but hopefully we’ll get there.”

“I don’t know if we have fully achieved the dream per se. So long as we are realistic and practical in our approach we can work to achieve more aspects of that dream. Hopefully we’ll get to the total realization of the dream but I think it is going to take a lot of work and we are not there yet.”

Professor Ekow N. Yankah

What sparked your interest in the legal profession?

“I’ve always wanted to be a lawyer. I love the competition of it. I love fighting over ideas. Basically the idea that you talk about something, argue about something, and get paid for it. Are you kidding me? That’s easy. I’ll do that. [L]aw for me was very natural. The other way of putting it is it’s not entirely clear that I have any other talents…I wish I had some more heart-wrenching answer…I think if you would have shown me the life I have now I would have said, ‘That’s about right.’”

What would you attribute the drop in minority law school enrollment to?

“I’m ambivalent about it. You can’t help but be disappointed when you hear that there are fewer and fewer talented young black people going into law. On the other hand I’d be much more worried if the trend was that fewer black students are capable of becoming lawyers. The fact that more black students are taking the LSAT, the fact that more black students are doing well on the LSAT but they’re not enrolling well—presumably it tells us that they are perfectly capable of entering law school, they’re just finding other interesting things to do, and I have to tell you, I don’t know if that’s so bad.

[I]t is true that the black community would do very, very well to go into banking, to have more black doctors…especially, I think, business…I’m torn because I see the deep value of the law. If somebody tells me there are these other reasons, like they can’t afford it or there’s too much stress for them within their community to allow them to go to law school…[b]ut if you tell me they are very capable, but they just decide to do other productive things, I would have to know more about where these kids are going before I worry too much about it.”

What is the state of civil rights with Obama now in office? Do you think we have achieved the “Dream?”

“Nobody is not impressed by this man. He’s just dazzling. I don’t think anything like the “Dream” is achieved…I do think there will be some good, both, by the way, for the black and white community. [W]ill it have an impact on young black people on the streets? I mean, it can’t be bad.

Barack Obama is extraordinary. [H]e’s done very well on every metric possible, and I worry, while I’m glad he’s not an athlete or a celebrity or something like that, that he’s sort of a deification. I actually think what’s actually missing in black America is not more Barack Obama’s…I think the country could do more of seeing black people like I know that wake up every day, go to their job, and go home.

I think my one worry is that Barack Obama is so dazzling
that it’s easy to think of him as a totally different type of creature. I think America would do well to get hammered home the idea that maybe your black colleagues are not so far different than they look…[I]t’s the black taxi cab driver and his black dentist passenger that I wish America would know better.”

What would you like to tell the Cardozo community? What’s your message?

“That is a lot of pressure…[D]on’t just let your career happen around you; you have so many opportunities, so many chances. [I]f you look up and you’re 45 and your career happened in ways that you let just wash over you and you’re unhappy, you really have to blame yourself.

I’ve always said, “I’ve always done what I loved until somebody made me stop,” and I know it sounds really naïve and cheesy, but it has led me to here, and I have lots and lots of problems, but I’m one of the happier people I know because I love what I do and I’ve tried to find a way to do the things I love as much as possible.”

Who is the most influential African American in the legal profession today?

“I have no idea…Clarence Thomas is a Supreme Court justice. He’s hugely influential…although he’s not a very influential Supreme Court justice. Eric holder is the Attorney General and that’s a tremendous responsibility. Ted Shaw is very impressive. Vernon Jordan is very well connected and sort of a power player in D.C. [Ted Wells] is tremendously influential; lots of people call him the most important black lawyer in the country.”

Why do you always looks so sharp?

“There’s no good answer. It’s probably true I enjoy clothing more than I should. It’s my not-so-secret indulgence. I have a team of specialists who have to work on me…[T]hey air drop in from France. It’s terrible…I’m ashamed.”

Bianca Taylor, Admissions Counselor

How did you get involved in Admissions? What brought you to Cardozo?

“While in college at the University of Maryland as a pre-law student, I began working part-time in the Office of Undergraduate Admissions. I was one of those tour guides that you’d see walking backwards with a large group of prospective students and parents in tow. From there it progressed into me helping more with actual application review and attending various recruitment events as a representative for the University. And in my senior year, when I finally accepted the fact that I didn’t want to pursue a career in the legal world, the Admissions Office offered me a position.

I worked there for approximately two years before pursuing a Masters in education, with a focus in higher education, at the University of Pennsylvania. It was my time at Maryland and Penn that confirmed that I wanted to work with students of color and underrepresented populations concerning issues of college access. Upon graduation from Penn, I decided I wanted to continue in admissions, but on the graduate school side, which is what brought me to Cardozo.”

Quantitative factors (e.g., undergraduate GPA, LSAT scores) are often outcome determinative in law school admissions. To what extent has this affected enrollment rates for students of color?

“Each and every application submitted to Cardozo is holistically and thoroughly reviewed by the Admissions Committee. In evaluating applications, the Committee carefully considers each individual’s achievements in light of any economic, social, physical, and/or educational obstacles. In addition to performance on the LSAT, the Committee will pay particular attention to undergraduate and graduate transcripts, letters of recommendation, work experience (if applicable), and demonstrated leadership. As a result, quantitative factors alone are not predictive of an applicant’s chances for admission to Cardozo.”

From an admissions perspective, how can we increase acceptance and matriculation rates for students of color?

“It is very important that current Cardozo students become active in the recruitment process. We in Admissions ask Cardozo students to attend informational law fairs in this area and around the country, and to participate in on-campus recruitment activities, such as admitted student events, daily tours of the school, our annual diversity day for prospective applicants, calling and emailing admitted applicants, and the annual MLSA orientation dinner. Your support can help us continue to enroll a student body that is increasingly diverse. Think about it: When you were admitted to law school, it is likely that some of your questions were, “Are there other people like me? Are there people with similar interests as mine, are there people with similar goals and backgrounds as mine?” If prospective students don’t see or interact with students to which they can relate, it is unlikely they will be interested in attending that institution.”

How does Cardozo recruit talented students of color?

“Cardozo seeks to diversify the student body because it is essential to a dynamic and intellectually stimulating environment. The Law School seeks and encourages applications from students of varied backgrounds through recruiting efforts that include regular visits to historically black colleges and universities, working with organizations like the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund, and holding special programs such as an annual diversity day for prospective students.

How can current students and alumni, especially young alumni, support the school’s efforts to recruit students of color?

“As I previously mentioned, we welcome and encourage current students and alumni to participate in our recruitment efforts, to the extent that they are able given their work and educational commitments.”

What is the state of civil rights in light of the Obama presidency?

“In light of Obama’s presidency, I believe that the issues of civil rights will be addressed unlike any other president since the Civil Rights movement. Obama has reenergized this country and I believe that it is this newfound energy that will be the thing that will make sure civil rights issues remain a priority, among many, on this new administration’s agenda.

What do you enjoy when you are not working?

“I am recently married, so I love spending time with my husband! I also love to travel, but sadly, I don’t have enough
time or money to travel as much as I’d wish. Luckily, I am also somewhat of a homebody, so I
also don’t mind a lazy Sunday afternoon playing Wii.”

If you had not gone into Admissions, what would you be doing?

“I would work with high school students from underrepresented populations concerning issues of college access. But I suppose that is somewhat related to admissions, so if that doesn’t count, I’d be a sociologist.”

Anything else you would like the Cardozo community to know?

“Sure, I recently became a published author! I wrote a chapter in a book titled Historically Black Colleges and Universities: Triumphs, Troubles and Taboos. My chapter is called ‘Color and Class: The Promulgation of Elitist Attitudes at Black Colleges.’ The chapter is a historical analysis that uses the black college as a lens through which to explore the manifestations of classism and colorism within the black community. I examine the ways in which education has been a main factor in promoting the black elite. And I connect this examination with color and class rifts, rarely discussed, but deeply embedded in African American culture.”